Manufacturing Needs Women

Ed Ballina (00:00)

Welcome to season two of MMU, I’m Ed Ballina and my partner

Alvaro Cuba (00:06)

Hello guys, I’m Alvaro Cuba here. And as I said, welcome to season two. If you recall, just connecting, and when we finished season one last year, we were doing some predictions for 2025 about what would be the key topics for manufacturing for the year. And we came up with four, productivity, customer and cost. The second was AI and the connectivity and the data. The third sustainability and the fourth was industry 5.0 in support of industry 4.0, more focused on people. And what we have seen in the last couple months, starting the year is two additional topics important. One is food safety for the recent outbreaks that we saw. And the other is localization started with pandemics, but then because of the tariffs, now it’s even more about it. So we will be tracking those through the year and discussing about them. If you have preferences, thoughts, please let us know. And at the end, what is important is what is important for you and we’ll go for it. Ed.

Ed Ballina (01:31)

So just for the record, eight weeks in, our crystal ball predictions have been spot on and 100 % on target. Well, maybe not so much. 98.7. But one thing that I think is just in my mind blown up even more is this whole concept of AI. I mean, you can’t turn the news on without hearing, hey, we’re going to make a $500 billion investment in AI.

Hey, the new chat GPT’s out. I am just putting my toes in this water, but it is really interesting. And I think we’re to be surprised at the end of the year how much AI has, you know, kind of jumped in to help us. So anyway, we’ll keep track of our predictions. I’m sure there’ll be some sort of a prize at the end to see how far we erred or hit the mark.

Ed Ballina (02:25)

Yes, yes, the you know, I may wear something like Dr. What was the name of that Johnny Carson show, the guy that was the fortune teller, Dr. something or other. When we do our review at the end of the year. Anyway, welcome to manufacturing, Meet Up for a podcast of season two, we made it through the first one. So we’re excited to bring you more content this year. This is the show where we kick back. We talk about our downtime, we get real about efficiency in our shop floor interactions, and today we have something really, really special.

<Intro Music/Animated Bumper>

Ed Ballina

Great, so I am thrilled to introduce our first guest for the year to MMU, they are Ellen Feldman-Ornato and Jenny Drescher. They are co-hosts of a podcast called Manufacturing Shake-Up. You know, Manufacturing Meet-Up, Manufacturing Shake-Up, we thought there was a little synergy in there, and then we have spent the last 30 minutes with these two wonderful women, and all we have, one thing we agree upon is our producers have their hands full trying to corral the four of us. anyway, with that, I’m gonna pass it on to them with the first question that we have for you. And that is, tell us a little bit about yourselves, right? Tell us about Manufacturing Shake-up. How did you get started? How was this thing brought about?

Ellen Feldman Ornato (04:07)

So I’ll start, guess. So Manufacturing ShakeUp is about a year over finishing up the last 10 episodes of our first year. And we recorded 52 episodes of about a half an hour in length that are slowly being released on LinkedIn and on YouTube. And we also have a website dedicated to Manufacturing Shake-Up.

The podcast is an outgrowth of an initiative by the Office of Manufacturing here in the state of Connecticut. We actually have a designated Office of Manufacturing and a Chief Manufacturing Officer, and they spun up something called Elevate Her, which was an initiative to rise up awareness and connection between women who were working in manufacturing across the state of Connecticut. It was part of a recognition that Connecticut has a labor shortage.

And one of the ways to fill that gap was to get more women interested in, involved in, and networking about manufacturing in Connecticut. So Jenny, you want to take it?

Jenny Drescher (05:07)

We got tapped to host it because we, like in our side hustle, our other day job as puppeteers.

Ed Ballina (05:21)

Alvaro Alvaro we are slacking on the puppets. 52 episodes. It makes me feel at 17, we’re slackers.

Alvaro Cuba (05:31)

Yes, a lot to learn from Jenny and Ellen. A lot to learn.

Jenny Drescher (05:37)

you should have puppets on your podcast. So this is why we got tapped to do the podcast. In truth, it wasn’t the puppets, although every podcast should have puppets, in my opinion. was because in our side hustle, which is actually our main job, is that we run a company called the Bolder Company. And at the Bolder Company, we do learning consulting for manufacturers, and we do a lot of speaking and a lot of supporting manufacturers like people on the shop floor. I love your opening where you talk about the let’s get real about shop floor interactions and all the stories I could tell you from my days on the floor.

Alvaro Cuba (06:14)

Go ahead, go ahead!

Jenny Drescher (06:18)

It got birthed because we really, we work in that same space that you described where so we work with communication and collaboration. And honestly, one of the hottest things that we get tapped for is adaptability. So that’s, that’s our day job. And so that’s why the Connecticut manufacturing folks said, Hey, let’s like, let’s give a mouthpiece to what’s happening in the manufacturing scene in Connecticut, because we dig it. I mean, we love it. And yeah, yeah, like the I can, do a good job for the record. I do a good job containing all of my swearing. I don’t know if you all do. Those were just, those were the lifelong habits that I picked up working in distribution for years. You know, when you drive a forklift, it just becomes the norm. Like, you know, so.

Alvaro Cuba (07:07)

You are doing great

Ed Ballina (07:09)

It’s an adjective

Jenny Drescher (07:10)

I’m working really hard right now.

Alvaro Cuba (07:12)

You

Ellen Feldman Ornato (07:13)

So with the podcast, what we’ve done is we’ve interviewed everything from the CEOs of major corporations all the way, not down to, but and including all the way down the ladder to 18 and 19 year olds who are in apprenticeships, who came out of high school, went directly to their tech high schools and then got placed in apprenticeships and are now working their way up onto the shop floor. So, you know, really looking at perspectives from on high as well as from starting level and then people in the middle, as well as on the office side, like really highlighting for folks that there are so many opportunities in manufacturing that have nothing to do with operating machines and production and have everything to do with marketing and public relations and human resources and accounting and supply chain, right? So there’s a fascinating array of careers that are available in manufacturing.

And we need to just break through the belief system that it’s still dark, dirty and dangerous.

Alvaro Cuba (08:16)

Mm-hmm.

Ed Ballina (08:17)

I could not agree more.

Alvaro Cuba (08:19)

Yes. Well, first, congratulations, ladies. I’ve seen a few episodes and really great fun. The topic, I think is very, very important. In my experience, Latin America or Asia or in the U.S., every time there is women and women representation and there is support, magic happens. And the contributions are great in all areas. So I really applaud the work that you are doing and not only yourself in the podcast, but as you said, bringing people from all areas to work or to reflect and to commit on that. Related question. Old times, men dominated field manufacturing. Last year we saw latest statistics of the Bureau of Labor, 29, 30 % representation in women, which is a big jump. So curious in…what you have been working on this, what are the things that are happening? What are the changes that are taking place there to take this representation from barely zero or close to zero to 30%.

Jenny Drescher (10:03)

I would actually challenge the idea that there weren’t many women in working in manufacturing before. Here’s why. If you look at the Rosie the Riveter model, at one of our favorite associations, big shout out to Women in Manufacturing, which is an international association largely built in North America.

Ellen Feldman Ornato (10:18)

I was just going to say that.

Jenny Drescher (10:29)

And they are also, are working hard to have manufacturing be the best possible career track for women who are saying, I could, I could work with robots. I’m hell yeah to that. They have, they had a great panel at their summit in 2023, I think it was about what had happened with like, where did Rosie come from? And what does Rosie have to teach us?

And so during the war, when there was the women going in, following the call to build the planes and all of that, a lot of that actually stuck. I think although we think of manufacturing as this is just a really male space, and I’m not saying it’s not because historically the numbers definitely do reflect that to your point, Alvaro, but… I think that part of busting through the changes that we’re all trying to make in this space involves us challenging our assumptions in general about what does manufacturing look like for anybody. So if we bust that up a little and we say, to your point, women have always, like when women show up, stuff gets done, just saying.

Alvaro Cuba (11:44)

It’s true. So I witnessed that. Yeah.

Jenny Drescher (11:48)

Exactly. But I think part of what you’re seeing where that number may be coming from is there are a couple different sources. One, women being fast-tracked recently in the last decade into STEM careers. So that is definitely making a very big difference. I mean, right here in Connecticut, we have, for example, we have programs at the high school levels and the technical school levels.

Ellen Feldman Ornato (12:11)

junior high too. They’re starting to introduce robotics and robotics teams in the junior high schools. So yeah.

Ed Ballina (12:17)

It’s interesting you bring that up. I have my cousin’s eldest daughter has decided to go into essentially the VOTEC to study to be an HVAC contractor. Now her dad happens to be a welder for the ironworkers. He’s the guy you see on the skyscrapers, you know, welding. It’s kind of, he from the beginning kind of made it open right? for his children. He’s got two two daughters and a son to kind of pick their own field, but he showed him how to do things. He’s very handy. And, you know, his daughter’s you know, her dream is I’m going to be an HVC contractor and she’s headed in that direction. And it’s really starting to bust to your point, those stereotypes and you know, we chatted briefly before this about what we see in especially in the blue, what we had traditionally called blue collar, right?

The trades right whether it’s you know women getting into welding You know women getting into roles that traditionally you think diesel mechanics, right? Some of this, know more what used to be really brawny looking stuff, right? So I think it’s not only happening I see a little bit more in the professional world But I think we have a wave coming in the trades that I think is going to be hugely beneficial and empowering to women

Ellen Feldman Ornato (13:38)

It’s also so generational. We’ve had huge shifts from a generational standpoint. As the World War II generation starts to fully retire and it leaves behind, in that next step is the Gen X folks and the millennials behind them. The millennials particularly were raised in an environment with parents who told them you can be anything, who were much more egalitarian in their schooling.

Jenny Drescher (13:40)

Yes.

Ellen Feldman Ornato (14:01)

You know, that was when you really started to see waves of women going into engineering and going into the sciences and going into math and math degrees. So like the evolution of the demographics that are moving through the country are also making it more of a norm for women to be in those places. So the question is just how does leadership start to adapt the environments? So they’re more, accepting for all, I think is just the best way to say it, where it can work for everyone.

Alvaro Cuba (14:30)

And I think now technology even is going to give it an additional boost to what you’re saying, no? Because we even talk in one of the episodes about not any more blue collar and white collar, but the new collar, which is more skill trait. And technology is given that jump to the new generation.

Ed Ballina (15:00)

So I think we had a couple more questions. Another one that we had for you is if you were addressing a young woman considering a manufacturing career today, what misconceptions would you try to dispel?

Jenny Drescher (15:17)

But the one that pops into my head, I’m sure Ellen is thinking of a different one, but the one that pops into my head is you need to be, you need to be super tough to go into manufacturing because I, what I see in the, in a lot of my friends who work in manufacturing and in our clients from Bolder company and in our guests is this idea that you know, sort of what you’re talking about with Industry 5.0 that people are realizing, wait a minute. Like the business model is kind of changing the way that we’re doing things is changing. And you don’t have to, you don’t have to go into manufacturing, expecting it to be fisticuffs all the time and saying, I have to be tough and thick skinned and all of this. It’s not that we don’t need those basic skills in any line of work, but we’ve noticed some really big differences happening in that head space. And I think it’s a much more generally inviting space and honestly a lot more professionalized than it used to be. It used to be a non-professional space. It was a space where, yeah, you absolutely had to wear your armor into work every day. And it’s not that there aren’t plenty of challenges out there in the field still where, that happens. But…

That’s what I would challenge any young woman to rethink. Hmm. Maybe I don’t have to do that.

Ellen Feldman Ornato (16:45)

The other thing that is definitely a thing right now is that it’s an employee’s market. They can be selective. We interviewed somebody on the podcast just this week who said she had four interviews coming out of college. She was in a program at Quinnipiac University. And she said she went to the first one and it was kind of like dingy and the machinery was old. Then she went to the next one and it was bright and well lit and clean.

And the people were kind and people were smiling. And then she went to two more and they were more like the first one. So she just gravitated naturally towards the environment that felt more like she could find her place there. So it’s less about counseling the women on like how to be tough and more about just be selective. There are more opportunities than it might seem like. So you don’t have to put up with behaviors either because some of those places are still pretty rough and tumble.

You don’t have to put up with a place or an environment. This is men or women. That doesn’t work for you on an emotional level, right? Because we can’t be stressed out every day and do our best work. That’s the bottom line. So if people want to create environments where the people do their best work, then they might want to think about like, how can we create that? And it’s not, this is not rocket science, treating people well and with respect, right? Providing some flexibility.

Ed Ballina (18:04)

No. It’s good for everybody, right? You know, having a welcoming environment in the plant just makes a world of difference. And if you think about where technology has taken us, A lot of the tasks that used to be, used to require physical strength, right? That, you know, think about the mechanic, because the machinery was not properly maintained is wading into six inches of grease and heavy pieces of metal and all that. I mean, I’m not saying that a woman can’t pick up, you know, the same amount of weight, but it has been geared towards men. A lot of that’s going away. And a lot of our more physical activities are now going to be undertaken by robots. I think about, you know, yeah, that happens in, in, in the warehouses where people pick cases and put them on a pallet, right? That’s really hard physical work.

And I’ve had some amazing female loaders, but by and large, 90 % of them are men. So there’s an area where in the future that will be done by robots. So the physical part of it starts becoming less and less of a barrier and more and more about old news. We’re not the dirty, dingy sweatshops of the 1900s that you see in the old movies, These places are brightly lit. You’re working with technology.

You’re working with really bright people and it’s an opportunity for you to really grow your career in a fantastic way. Alvaro.

Alvaro Cuba (19:39)

Yeah, and it, I think it benefits everyone. Not only the people in the lines, but maintenance supervisors, the plant manager, the entire company. And I think, Ellen, you said it, when you feel comfortable and you feel safe, which is the basic, then you start thinking on innovation and quality and giving your best and connecting with other people and sharing ideas. So I think we are moving, which is great. We are moving into that kind of environment in manufacturing.

Jenny Drescher (20:31)

That’s another way that science is helping us actually. Science and technology, if we think about the thing you both just described about dark, dirty, dangerous, we needed something to lift the heavy, we need to invent something to lift the heavy object so that humans don’t have to do it and hurt themselves. Technology is also bringing us a better ability to actually work with our own nature as people. So we’re total brain science geeks. at Bolder Company, that’s what Ellen is kind of pointing to, which is this idea that when we are stressed, we lose our ability to think clearly, to make great decisions, to understand our priorities, to manage conflict without going, it’s all your fault, you know, or to do all of the things that allow for the innovation, to your point. But science is helping us with that too, right? We can scan the brain, we can actually hook a human brain up and see what it… does, not me personally, although I could try. But science is helping us because we understand so much more about how our most fundamental things like emotions have this giant part to play in how we treat each other. And that is critical when you’re talking about what we teach a ton of emotional intelligence to engineers, because it’s, they’re so technically outstanding and they raise their hands to us and they go, I need help with the people part. It don’t go well.

Ellen Feldman Ornato (22:06)

They’re very self-aware that they’re not self-aware.

Jenny Drescher (22:09)

Yeah, I mean, because and it’s because they get they build this amazing expertise in the lane that they’re great at and you know, just like any of us do. So they love it when we teach the brain science because they’re like, wait, I can learn how to manipulate that machine. That’s cool. The machine that is between my two ears. Rock on. I can do that.

Ellen Feldman Ornato (22:30)

You know, Alvaro, I wanted to bring up there was another thing, this whole idea of dark, dirty and dangerous. Just quickly, the Office of Manufacturing, when they were trying to figure out how to get more young people into manufacturing in Connecticut, they did a study and it turns out that it wasn’t so much the dark, dirty, dangerous thing that they thought it was going to be that was the obstacle. It was the complete absence of awareness that manufacturing was even a thing. Because you know, Connecticut, I don’t know if you’ve been here, there a lot of small suburban towns, right? Manufacturing happens in buildings behind the walls. It’s not like kids have any exposure at all to this entire sector of the economy unless it’s intentional, right? So now that the high schools are having more active interaction with manufacturers in their areas, now that there are commercials and there are radio programs that are talking about these careers, they’re using our podcast actually at the technical school level and in our regional college system. to help people get a sense of like, these are all the different careers you can have, these are the skills you need to develop, and to have people sort of overcome their lack of awareness and work with parents in high schools as well, so that parents are advising their kids instead of saying, you know, go work at Target, is why don’t you get a summer job at the manufacturing plant up the road that could lead to something productive for you, where they might not have even thought of that before.

It really is a lot of getting to the parents and having them understand the value.

Ed Ballina (24:01)

And frankly sharing with them that you know what supply chain manufacturing can be a more lucrative career track than others that you may choose and usually has a pretty high return on your educational investment right so not that engineering schools are cheap or you know science you know STEM kind of education but pretty darn good return compared to some others so there’s a lot of, not to necessarily only appeal to the greed side of it, but you’ve got to think with the cost of an education these days, you’ve got to think realistically about what’s my return? What’s the return of my investment? I had a family member that reached out to me asking for help to place one of my nieces. And unfortunately, she had a degree, this is when I was still working for PepsiCo. She had a degree in essentially a very specific social studies field, right?

I mean, I took her resume to the VP of HR, said, hey, we’re friends, right? Can you take a look at this? And she was like, Ed, I don’t know what to do with this degree. I mean, you know, could bring her in on the sales side at the beginning, you know, kind of start from the bottom, but, and those are sad discussions to have with people at times, right? But she, it turned out well, she eventually went on, she got an MBA and, she kind of went into a field that had more potential, but rate of return on your education is important.

Ellen Feldman Ornato (25:25)

Sure, and manufacturing offers us the opportunity to get in as an apprentice to learn a trade. And you’re going to want at some point to get an engineering degree. It creates a natural curiosity. Like, I’m working machines all the time. It would be really great to get an associate’s degree in mechanical engineering. And by the way, I might want to even get my bachelor’s degree. Because they see an advancement opportunity for themselves as they grow their skills in education as opposed to coming out with a four-year degree and going, well, this is great. What do I do with this? It’s very different.

Alvaro Cuba (25:58)

I would say it’s an opportunity period. If you think economically, one year of education and then go to work versus four, if you like it, you are there. Second, manufacturing is an entire world. have quality and management and engineering and operation.

So there is plenty of fields to be there and something very appealing to the new generation, it has strict hours of work, which allows you to have a second career or do your gig because you know it’s eight hours done and then you have your other eight hours. So yeah, it’s a big opportunity.

Jenny Drescher (26:55)

I love that. And I love the idea also, not only does that make sense for the next generation of workers to have room for a gig, but to have room for a life where you get to make a difference because we know that this is a significant value generation.

Alvaro Cuba (27:11)

for this generation, environment, social justice.

Jenny Drescher (27:16)

Yeah, we don’t, you know, they’re inheriting, you know, sorry, Boomers but you know.

I’m a Gen Xer, but we have our own set of problems. you know, we had with the bad habit we bring to the workplace is suck it up buttercup, just figure it out. And we’re all trying to break ourselves of that nonsense. But one thing that’s super cool about, you know, to your point, Alvaro is that there is this space of being able to say, I can have a life. I don’t have to just, you know, I’m just gonna open a vein and just give all of my life to work because I mean, come on, none of us wants that, but manufacturing can offer a very, very different track.

Alvaro Cuba (28:06)

Work-life balance. Great. Okay. Last question, ladies. Beyond representation, more on women’s participation in manufacturing and the benefits that the industry can have it. What were your thoughts? How the industry can better support that? And also how the women participation can help the industry. Both sides of the story.

Ellen Feldman Ornato (28:43)

So from what the industry can do, the degree to which the industry can be a little bit more flexible with work hours. We’ve seen some of the model programs out there with the highest level of employee engagement from women who are in the workplace is places where sometimes people are allowed to split shifts. So it allows them to have a little bit more balance. If the job doesn’t require them to be on site that they can work from home, right?

There’s then there’s also, you know, the question of what is the physical space like when they’re there? You know, the best organizations have things like nursing pods and they make sure that there are bathrooms that are within a reasonable distance of the places that women are working because there are some plants that still only have one women’s bathroom in a, you know, in a 3000 square foot facility and it takes 20 minutes to get to the bathroom and back.

Right? So it’s just like looking at your physical plant, looking at the ways that you could make it a little bit more welcoming. And this isn’t just women. This is women and all of the underrepresented groups in manufacturing right now. We need to solve the labor problem. And AI and automation is only going to take us so far. So the question is, how do you attract more people than the traditional sort of male centered environment in terms of ideal candidate so that the environment matches the people you’re trying to attract?

Jenny Drescher (30:10)

I think also the other piece that’s there is that in terms of solving the labor problem, which is really the essence of the question that you’re asking, we spend a ton of time talking with really great leaders about the right moves that they’re making inside their company culture. And that’s actually, mean, our other hustle, the Bolder Company, that’s a big piece of what we do. But the things we’re seeing really hot leaders get right are the flexibility thing that Ellen just pointed to. But they’re also just, they’re walking the walk at a much higher level in the places where it’s really succeeding. What they’re actually bringing to the table is stuff that would at one point have been considered heresy at things like vulnerability and authenticity and actually being willing to say, I don’t know.

I mean, we’ve all worked in jobs where that was not the norm. I spent a few days with a strong group of men working in manufacturing at a conference a couple of weeks ago. And that was one of the things that I saw was humility and authenticity and vulnerability. And so I think that smart, savvy, modern leaders, particularly men, who are modeling that for other men, every time a leader does that, they’re giving permission, social permission through what they’re modeling and they’re saying, yeah, right? Like authentic leadership actually is way more effective than blame and telling you that you suck and go do something different. Way better, any day of the week.

Alvaro Cuba (31:54)

Much more productive as well, not only for the company, but for the people.

Ellen Feldman Ornato (32:00)

There’s an enormous cost associated with turnover. And, you know, we don’t have time to get to it today, but the whole question of are you managing your performance for the best people in your organization? Are you managing your performance for the lowest performers in the organization? What is your tolerance level for people whose behavior is outside of kind? Right? How many people are you going to allow one person to cause to leave before you take action and cut that in the bud and put that person on a performance improvement plan, which demonstrates to the other people that you noticed it, you care about it, and that this person’s behavior needs to change or they go. Because leaving those people in your environment, you can put all the pretty window shades on there and paint everything bright and shiny. But that overall culture that Jenny’s talking about that is vulnerable and authentic.

Creating that requires the other piece of it too, which is looking at what’s not working and taking care of that as well.

Ed Ballina (33:04)

I think we’ve all seen examples where one bad plant director winds up essentially pushing everybody around him or her out of the organization. And you wind up losing some really great people before you take the action that says, I’m sorry, your values and the values we have are really not aligned.

I just got done listening to your podcast with the person from Westminster Tool. And thought that was really, is it Hannah? And it was so interesting to hear how she kind of came into it through her family, but never thought that that’s something she wanted to do until she started reporting on it, right? And it was, was, it sometimes all it takes is that exposure, right?

Ellen Feldman Ornato (33:39)

Hannah Belmont, yeah.

Ed Ballina (33:58)

to create that technically inquisitive spark to go, wow, that’s kind of cool. And we can think shows like How It’s Made you know, some of these other ones that have shown up, That people all of a sudden get hooked on how these things come together. anyway.

Jenny Drescher (34:13)

And puppets!

Alvaro Cuba (34:14)

Yes.

Jenny Drescher (34:17)

Every culture should have puppets.

Alvaro Cuba (34:19)

Well, this has been a great segment. And as you said, Ellen, a lot more to talk about and a lot more topics. So we really hope we can have you back in the podcast again so we can continue doing that. And by the way, Jenny, we need to…get to know your 52 puppets. I heard one by show, so I’m really curious about the 51 that we haven’t seen.

Jenny Drescher (34:51)

So we need to do some puppet podcast training for you. Sara in the background is going geez here we go…

Alvaro Cuba (35:24)

Yes, yes. Don’t give these ideas to these guys because I’ll be in trouble.

Ed Ballina (35:34)

Tough to keep them under control

Ellen Feldman Ornato (35:37)

That is right.

Alvaro Cuba (35:39)

It has been great to have you on the show, ladies. Thank you so, so much. Thank you. We really enjoy the time, enjoy, get to know you and yeah, you inspire us in many areas and also taught us some good practices that Ed and I swear we’ll try to implement.

Ed Ballina (36:06)

gonna give it a shot.

Alvaro Cuba (36:07)

Yeah, well, try to give it a shot. But a big thank you and all the best with your podcast and with Bolder and the great work that you are doing. So keep keep at it because it’s really necessary. Thank you so much.

Ellen Feldman Ornato (36:24)

It’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Alvaro Cuba (36:37)

That’s all for today, folks. Thank you so much again for joining the manufacturing meetup. If you are watching us on YouTube, please give us a like or leave us a comment in iTunes. And more important, give us your comments. Let’s make this meetup to grow. And we promised something as hilarious as the puppets. So we’ll think about that.

Ed Ballina (37:11)

So if you want to keep the conversation going, can email us at mmu.augury.com. You can find us on the Endpoint, which is a free online community for manufacturing supply chain pros like us. You can find that at endpoint.augury.com. We’ll also have those links in the show notes for this episode. And see you next time. Manufacturing meetup buddies and manufacturing shakeup as well. Take care.

Alvaro Cuba (37:38)

See you guys, bye.